This is where you’ve become most electrically controversial. And so I want to play a clip of I think where some of this has become tricky. This is you talking to Rashida Tlaib at last year’s D.S.A. convention. “Zionism is an exterminationist ideology built around ethnoreligious supremacist values. So when people say, like, oh, well, I’m a liberal Zionist, like, – I want there to be a Jewish —— – I’ve heard that so many times. I want there — I’m a liberal Zionist. I want there to be a Jewish ethnostate. I’m like, OK, like, what do you mean? It’s like saying you’re like a liberal Nazi. You want an Aryan majority ethnostate? Like, what are you talking about? There’s people there.” So a minute ago you were saying you’re in the camp with Brad Lander, who’s a liberal Zionist, incoming congressman from Brooklyn. You’re also kind of here saying liberal Zionists, to you, are like liberal Nazis. Put that together for me. All right. So great question. Zionism, by my estimation, and I think this is becoming a more popular position overall, is a racist ideology. It differs — the way that people see it depending on their social conditioning differs. But its impact ultimately is undeniably a racist one. It’s an exterminationist ideology because it’s led – to the extermination —— – Brad Lander is an – exterminationist? – So with Brad Lander, the reason why I say he’s a part of this coalition is because I find him to be a fascinating figure, because on the one hand, he says he’s a liberal Zionist. But also on the other hand, he recognizes the apartheid, he recognizes the occupation and seeks out the end of the apartheid and the occupation. He recognizes the genocide and wants accountability. The areas of disagreement between myself and Brad Lander is when, for example, I love that he went out to the West Bank and wanted to do protective presence during the olive harvest. “I’m in the West Bank this week as part of the protect the harvest effort. We’re helping Palestinian farmers harvest olives rather than be ethnically cleansed from their land.” I think that’s great. That’s wonderful. And more politicians should do that, especially politicians who are self-described as liberal Zionists should do that as well. But then during that experience he gets detained. I think that was more so the Israeli government trying to save that group so that the settlers didn’t attack them. And it became a much worse and much bloodier affair. But then someone attacks a checkpoint in the West Bank, and there are occupying forces, occupying force soldiers at this checkpoint. And I believe they got killed. Brad Lander came out and said, you know, rest in peace to the I.D.F. soldiers that were at this checkpoint. Now, my expectation isn’t for Brad to come out and be like “Get wrecked” to those people. But my expectation, and I think the expectation of many people on the anti-Zionist side, is to approach the issue with the understanding that it is illegal for those soldiers to be there. The entire franchise is illegal. The settlement project is completely illegal under international law. But what you’re describing here — I’m not arguing with this part — but what you’re describing here, I understand there’s a difference between being an anti-Zionist and a liberal Zionist. When you described what Brad Lander believes, you’re just describing what liberal Zionists today believe. It’s an occupation. It’s an apartheid. I wouldn’t say all liberal Zionists believe that. I’m not saying all. I agree with that. The genocidal dimension is the part where people part. But a couple of times now you have called liberal Zionists akin to Nazis, right, that’s a very specific thing. Sometimes I’ll hear you defend the argument by saying: Well, Zionism in all of its versions is ethnonationalist, and I’m just saying I don’t like ethnonationalism. What made the Nazis the Nazis was gas chambers, just like, straight, right? Liberal Zionists who believe there’s an apartheid scenario happening in the West Bank, who believe that Gaza was a genocide, or at least war crimes, I don’t really understand the defense of calling them akin to Nazis. Now, it’s hyperbolic, but the reason why I’m not so precious about the utilization of the term is because of its historic significance. The entire principle behind Holocaust studies is to understand how society could move in a direction where people could turn a blind eye to such devastation, to such systematized forms of violence, this machine of death and destruction.
