So what are you putting in your body? Testosterone is one thing. Since my 30s, I’ve been doing T.R.T. I’m taking GLP-1s because I’m a stress eater. I’m taking DHEA, which is a hormone like substance. I do one medical drug for sleep, which is called Quviviq. So I have not tried any recreational drug except for coffee. And psychedelics, but that’s another topic. We’ll get to that in a sec. Christian Angermayer, welcome to Interesting Times. Thank you for having me. You’ve probably heard that recently, the pope put out an encyclical, a big document, on artificial intelligence. And one of the most striking passages in that document was a critique of what the pope called transhumanism, Basically, you could define it as the idea that a lot of the fundamental constraints that human beings face — aging, illness, mental suffering, maybe even mortality itself — are things that eventually technology, drugs, science can help us overcome. I think that made me want to talk to you, because you’re an advocate of what you call the next human agenda, which includes enhancing human athletic performance, using psychedelics to alter human consciousness, and figuring out — just maybe — how to extend the human lifespan. I’m interested in all this practically, and how it might change the world. I’m also personally interested in figuring out where I draw the line between breakthroughs that make us healthier and fitter, and breakthroughs where I might be on the pope’s more skeptical side. Tell me first, what is the next human agenda, and how would you define your own philosophy? I used to actually use the word “transhumanism.” Then I realized that people have a negative reaction, and I think because they also wrongly, not that they don’t understand it, but I think the association is — and again, I haven’t read the encyclical yet, I want to — but my gut feeling is that he falls in the same trap, where transhumanism makes people think: Oh, we’re humans now, and then we’re something else, because that’s obviously the Latin word, “trans.” And that creates a counterreaction, which I understand because that’s not what I want to say. So I actually started using the word, which is now also very funny because it’s used in another funny context — “maxxing.” Maxxing. Oh, yeah. Humanmaxxing. Human maximization. I don’t think we should become something different, because I think humans are awesome, but I think we can maximize the potential which is already in us. So to your question, what we define as “next human agenda” is using technology, science and progress to really maximize both our physical appearance, our life, because it can also be something outside of us. For example, A.I. and robotics will definitely minimize the need for human labor, in a positive way. A lot of people are frightened by that, but if you think it through, I think it can actually be a much more human society, because the question is, are we really meant to work 10 hours a day? Isn’t it more human being with friends and being a social animal? In many ways, I think technology will both help us explore and sort of, yeah, improve — again, improve sounds like [unintelligible] It’s just add-on our body and mind and on the world around us. In short, I’m a very optimistic person where science and technology leads us. So give me just a couple examples of the kinds of things that you’re invested in or involved in in this space, and then we’ll drill down into some of the subjects. Well, the favorite one is always psychedelics. With a narrow view, they have the potential to really change how we treat mental health issues, which already is already huge. And it’s only growing because, I think, humans are very anti-change. And we will actually in the next 10 years, go through the biggest change in the shortest period of time had ever had ever to do it. This will create a lot of fear, and I think psychedelics can actually help really guide people or help them adjust humanity to radically different future. So psychedelics is one thing. I started two very successful longevity companies, where we work in slowing down and ultimately reversing what we colloquially call aging, which is not a single disease, but is more complex. We’re doing a lot in A.I. and robotics. We’re also doing a lot in sports. Why sports? Because I believe — again, I deeply believe, I cannot see it differently — that A.I. and robotics will massively reduce the need for human labor. I can totally see a very positive society because I think that attachment we must have a job is kind of a narrative. Yes, we gave it to ourselves as humanity over the last I don’t 8,000 years because it was holding society together. But if you go to an individual factory worker in China and would say, hey, do you want to have the same quality of life and half of the work. This person will say, yeah tomorrow and then play becomes more important in that way. Sport, entertainment, social stuff. I always say if I look at of our spectrum, we have three tech and biotech areas. It’s biotech with a focus on longevity and mental health. Then we do a lot in fintech and crypto and then deep tech, which is space tech, A.I., robotics, that kind of stuff. And then we have the two flip sides or the two other sides like the physical ones, which is sports, entertainment and hospitality. And we also do a bit in natural resources, mostly in those natural resources, which are used. And for I from uranium, because I believe I will only increase the need for power to copper and stuff like that. All right. So let’s talk about what I think is the highest profile way that listeners might have encountered what you’re working on recently. And this is the enhanced games, which is a mildly controversial, let’s say, sports competition billed as an alternative to the Olympics. And it encourages the use of illegal performance enhancing drugs, which obviously the Olympics do not. The inaugural games happened last month in Las Vegas. And we’re going to talk about what happened there. But first, just tell me the big vision and the pitch for the enhanced games. You said it pretty well the games itself are a sporting event, which at the beginning had similar or has and will always have similar events like the Olympics. We started with swimming, running and weightlifting and with the big difference that we allow, I want to phrase it even better medically approved performance enhancing drugs. So my simple view is that neither I should be the arbiter of what is allowed or not, nor should be WADA, the world anti-doping agency and the IOC. Together we have actually an amazing agency which is very neutral, which is very scientific, and that’s the F.D.A. So what we do at the enhanced games, we say everything which is F.D.A. approved is fair game. Everything which is not F.D.A. approved is not allowed as well. So that’s our rule. Can you give an example just for people who know about this in the most general steroids in baseball kind of way, of what’s something that falls on the approved side and what’s something that falls on the non-approved side. So what we allow testosterone Yeah, testosterone is medically approved, but you do it under medical supervision with our doctors together, because we really prioritize health, not like rules like or random rules like the IOC. So if you want to be an athlete in that Olympic world or a soccer player, whatever, you sign a personal contract and say, look, I adhere to the water list. Sorry, what is water. Sorry, water is world anti-doping agency. So what we are saying is we have a different rule set and we just have a different arbiter, which in our case is the F.D.A.. You also have to stick to their rules. You cannot take crystal Meth in the enhanced games. But you can take testosterone. That’s why when a lot of people call this the doping games, it’s nonsensical because in our case, they don’t break rules because we have a different rule set. They adhere to our rule set. But you paid them to. Exactly That’s the other. And that’s the real reason. The real reason why the IOC hates us is not doping. I’m sure that they hate you, but it’s not a doping. It’s like they treat the athletes like props, tools. But the heart and soul of the sports are the athletes Yeah, and not paying them is perverse. Like, it’s just like, not right. Morally not right Yeah and the day after we made that point and said we’re paying them in a proper way, the IOC president was literally asked if she believes athletes should get paid and she in the most cold hearted way. She was just like, I don’t believe in paying athletes. And I come from a small country. I came from a sport that doesn’t necessarily pay athletes very well, and I still don’t believe we should be paying athletes at the Olympic games. I was like, wow. So let’s talk. So you said the day after, let’s talk about the day after and what actually happened at the games and the narrative around it, which I’m sure that you have some strong feelings on. But basically, one athlete on performance enhancing drugs broke a world record. Stroke for stroke. Proud World record. 25 record. Nobody performed like Secretariat at the Belmont relative to other athletes, three athletes who competed clean. I think one won their events. And that has led a lot of people to say, well, this was a flop because for it to succeed, you would have to show that you were actually radically enhancing human athletic performance. And it seems like you didn’t. We did. But like I acknowledged, by the way, that’s again, I love to talk about controversy. By the way, the great thing is, with a sports event, every single controversy is good. Like, we measured the days of the event itself and the days around it, and we reached more than one billion original people, which is an insane number. One eighth of the world population have watched a clip. Not the whole thing, but a clip, something from the enhanced games, which I think is for a first time sport event, is insane. So actually, to finish the answer, what you said, what you questioned before and that’s then the answer also for this one, for the controversy with was it a flop or not is like we had a very mixed group of athletes and we wanted it like that, but we didn’t maybe perfectly communicate that because we had three groups of athletes. We had natural ones, which I wanted Hunter Armstrong, a swimmer to a little bit poke it like, look, show us your cards. Do you really want to expel them. So I wanted that group. So then the second group we had was a little bit older athletes in their seconds. They were never out to break world records. They were actually racing against themselves. But that is I think in the big to show resilience and know and show that we can reverse time because that is what we want to discuss here. The big topic of enhancements, for you and me and everybody in this building, nobody here with the best enhancement in the world will ever break a world record. Think about it. Breaking a world record is so elusive. If you break a world record, that means you’re better than 8 billion people. But for you and me, much more relatable is to say, wow, there is an athlete in their seconds, or hopefully next year. I want to have some athletes in their 40s and 50s, and they are better than they had been in their prime. And take Megan Romano, mid seconds. What kind of athlete. Swimming swimming. And she was very famous in swimming in America. The American Darling. And she was out there to break her own best time, which made her famous like 12.5 years ago. And she did it. Think about what that tells you. Like a 35-year-old with enhancements is a better version of themselves than they were at the peak of their career, 12.5 years ago. What was she taking. Just general hormones like. So we can also talk about the details why we not be thinking about it, but why are we not doing a recipe for not doing O.K. So you’re not disclosing. Exactly we did a full we did the groups of drugs athletes are taking. But not for each athlete. But the third group is the first group is a natural athletes. Second group is older athletes, older athletes. Again, older is like 35 but younger. Younger than me. But for athletes right out of their prime retired. And then the third one is athlete that Christian who is in his prime Yeah one of the best swimmers in the world. And he got enhanced and he broke the world record. So these are the three categories. And what we were not good hindsight is to really message that and say, look, this is now a race where a world record can be broken because there is a prime athlete right in his prime and he’s enhanced. So in a sense then for those of us who are not Olympic level athletes or are likely to become it, this becomes a larger advertisement for a world where you normalize testosterone replacement and other things across the life cycle as just what a normal person does. Is that the goal. So we want to first of all, break the taboo and show that enhancements, if and when done medically with medical substances, with a doctor together can be very positive for you and that they can be very positive for everybody. And then I want to entice people to think about it like, what is the best version of yourself. And that, by the way, can be a subjective answer. You might say you find this is the best version of you. Lucky if you think that Yeah but I also would say not everyone can be so fortunate. Exactly but maybe you would say what. I’m 99 percent there, but the 1 percent I would like, by the way. And this doesn’t need to be like, obviously everybody thinks now about of performance and looks because sports but that’s only the start. Yes weight loss muscle whatever. But you have hair growth but you have sexual you’re cutting now you’re cutting me to the quick but sexual appetite I don’t want to. I don’t want to do it like Yeah you have more sex. You want to feel more. Do you want to be smarter, by the way. Like you’re a journalist. You want to maybe read more, maybe read longer, maybe think more like so I think and that is what we are at the very beginning. I think we should be allowed and not just allowed. We should endorse. That’s what I’m doing with the enhanced games Yeah allow humans to maximize their potential with the help of science, of science, because we’re doing that since thousands of years. It’s just like we’re just feeling a little bit weird at the moment because it’s medical drugs we put in our body. And it’s this well, and it’s the scale and diversity of things. So if you’re offered as an enhancement caffeine and a few other substances, then you have some sense of well, I can go online and now I guess I’ll go online and ask Claude to tell me about the risks and benefits of caffeine, how many cups a day, and so on. But the world you’re in and it’s a world of yes, medications that are F.D.A. approved, but sometimes they’re F.D.A. approved for particular conditions. But still, we know it’s the world. Just you could respond, but it’s also the world of the supplements that are sold without F.D.A. approval that are legal, that they don’t have let’s say, an incredibly intense scientific grounding. So you present people with here these set of drugs, these set of supplements. There’s hundreds of them. There’s thousands of them. And people on the one hand might be baffled by all the choices. On the other hand, they also might worry that you, Christian angermayer, are not able to tell them with certainty. Like, what are the long term risks of this or that. How do you think about. It’s the opposite I really O.K. It’s good. Yes because I want to actually get across the opposite like yes. So let’s go one step back what I fear. Fear is a negative word. But like, well, if you look at the negative, fear is like but what I think is not right. Like the funny thing with the enhanced games is we’re kind of getting attacked a little bit from both sides we’re going to get attacked from. I expected that from the IOC. But then there is the other side at the moment, which is like, let’s call it I don’t want to call out single people, but looks like there is so much [expletive] online. So I’m watching that. as a half a scientist. Wait, are the looksmaxxers attacking you? No, but these are the ones who were like: Why didn’t they allow anything? Why didn’t they put the people on crazy stuff, and then let’s see if they can literally fly? And what I want, where I hope the world is going, and why I mentioned these looksmaxxers, is there is a clear demand positively. I would almost say it’s a cry for help of the consumer that people want to improve their life with science. And by the way, the positive cry for help or the positive show of demand are all these GLPs like all the weight loss drugs like Mounjaro or Ozempic. By the way, last year they made more revenues than all the A.I. companies together. And by the way, more than percent of the people who are using these weight loss drugs are not using it for what they clinically meant, they meant for diabetes and clinically obese people. I’m on a GLP 1 Yeah. Because it’s outsourced discipline. I’m not clinically obese. Hopefully so what is the cry for help. You just said there’s a cry for help is the cry for the cry for help is meaning. The positive thing is that now we have one category, which is the weight loss drugs and look like it’s big business people want them. And then you go online in all these amazing things and they’re debating things and it’s literally I. So you said people, it’s that people want the kind of optimization, they want optimization from GLP 1 and they wanted another area and other areas. Got it Yeah, exactly. They want to have more muscles. They want to have more sex. They want to have more fun when they go out and party, whatever they want. And now we can decide as a society that we ridicule that. And what then happens that we have the more fringes, let’s say neutrally Yeah, people are breaking their jaws. Recommend very crazy stuff. You don’t recommend jobs. I do not recommend chain to attain what you have. But what I’m saying is there is this demand and I want to fill it scientifically. And we have these amazing agencies. The F.D.A. is a great institution. They really have a very high bar, I can tell you, doing drug development since 28 years yeah, it’s a very high bar. And my view is let’s get stuff Hey, let’s use stuff which has already gone through that high bar, which by the way, again, I want to say it again because you insinuated, oh, we don’t know the risks. We do know the risk because that is for to be clear, we know risks of things that have passed the F.D.A. process. Hopefully I was also referencing, though, just the world of supplements, herbal cocktails, these kind of things, which I should say, these include things that I myself have taken, not for looksmaxxing, but I had a period of my life when I had a severe chronic illness. And so I just wandered in the world of non-F.D.A. approved stuff. So I have an appreciation for what it can do, for example. But we also don’t know a lot about what it does. For some we do and don’t. And again, I want to be also the trusted source. Let’s get back to self-improvement. So I mentioned that I took some weird supplements. I’ve taken some weird supplements in the course of my life. What struck me with those and these were essentially treatment for infections. Things that were supposed to treat infectious diseases. It was always my impression that they did things. But they did things on the margins. It’s been my impression as an observer of enhancement. It’s always seemed to me that a lot of this stuff falls into those categories. It’s like, O.K, you take these extra things while you work out and they make your workout, 1 percent or 2 percent more efficient and your bounce back 1 percent or 2 percent better and so on. And that’s meaningful. But it seems different from what Ozempic does. Ozempic is the first time where it’s like, it’s not like 1 percent better, it’s percent better, and you don’t even have to do anything else. And that, to me, seems like just a big change in what Yeah how people think about drugs, pharmaceuticals and personal enhancement. So first I wonder if you agree with that. Second, I wonder I want you to prophesy for a minute and tell me if you think Ozempic is just the first of many things where it has that kind of ease of transformation percent, and you hitting the best point, because that I always tell people is they are very healthy supplements. As I said, we offer that as well. But we always have to say and you maybe get 5 percent whatever. But it is like supplements are the three syllable ones. They making you a bit better, which is already great, but they are not a wonder drug, by the way. Nothing is a wonder drug. They always predicted that we need to use real medical drugs who have a very tangible effect. And once that happens, once you take Ozempic and you lose like 15 percent percent of your weight, then you’re like, wow, I want that. That’s great. By the way, you get that. Let’s take a very simple enhancement drug for men. Testosterone I can tell you should try it out and then report on the podcast. You’ve suggested that I have, I can and I see it also. By the way, I’m very, we’re not selling anything for men. We have some women, but which I don’t do myself. I want to ask about what you do yourself, but I can tell you if testosterone like it makes you feel like more than 10 years younger as a man. Full stop. We can. With medical drugs, which are already available today. We can make a massive improvement in performance, in weight, in appearance, similar to the amounts we see with Ozempic. And what I predict is, because now the ice is broken, every pharma company is like, wow, I want that, I want that revenue. And now they’re saying or understanding what I trying to say. Since 28 years is obviously, the market is much bigger if you have a total addressable market ideally of percent, then only for cancer, we should always work on cancer Yeah, as an industry, but luckily not everybody has cancer. And I always said, why don’t we. Additionally to curing things, the bad stuff, why don’t we additionally find things to which more or less everybody wants Yeah, right. And that race is on now. It’s weight loss is still the number one. But people are already looking now at muscle growth beyond testosterone. So you build take a pill, you take an injection, and you still have to exercise, but your muscles increase. Exactly so radically, without being in the gym, every one of my private biotech companies is doing exactly that. We’re working on a drug. It’s the mechanism is called AMPK activator. You actually lose weight and you gain muscles. You still have to train a bit, but much less. And then the Holy Grail would be you don’t train at all. And then. And then they’re huge. So is that fixed. What’s the status of hair loss. I’ve tried not to pay attention to it. So currently can already do a lot with topical versions of finasteride whatever. But like ideally you start them when it starts. So in your case, no I’m not O.K. Sorry in a hypothetical. In a hypothetical case, yeah. At the moment you would still need to if you have lost a lot of hair already, get the transplant and make sure it doesn’t fall out. But we don’t have the regrowth. But there are drugs in development and actually late stage. Not from us like which do that. Exactly so I would say give it five years and there will be a regrowth a hair regrowth drug on the market. By the way, another huge thing will be sex Yeah actually by the way, if you want to see it like that, Viagra was actually the very first best selling. That’s a good example. We just didn’t call it like that. But it is like, yeah. And then came with Olympic, but now it’s like, what’s the next. One of my favorite companies in our portfolio, in our biotech portfolio is a company called cadence. Not listed like they work on premature ejaculation, which happens to more people than you think. And no. Sorry go on. So yeah. And I think it’s 30 seconds I can’t relate. So, so but what we found out that. So we actually really ought to cure that Yeah and the drug we have in late stage is giving those men affected more. But then we found out in the healthy sorry, this is very serious. I’m just it’s very serious, by the way. It’s going to be I tell you, we’re going to be back and it’s going to be a huge market. And by the way, practically so far no big side effects. So that is like sex is a big thing. And then by the way, my number one is like happiness. What I’m trying to get across is like we have some illnesses and that’s how the whole world thinks so far, which are Black and white and where it’s very clear having cancer is bad. It’s not the standard. Curing it means bringing you back to normal and that’s it. There is no enhancement Yeah at the same having a viral infection, having a bacterial infection. It’s not normal. Let’s cure it. You’re back to normal. But there is so many subjective things. And this is for me looks, happiness, sex, intelligence. What do you think women want in this landscape in terms of we’ve been talking about male pattern baldness and erectile dysfunction. Just give me an example of the female market. But saying one thing is like, I can give you examples which a lot of women tell me, but I don’t even want to generalize because my whole message is, it’s up to you. And a lot of people think this is pushing people more in body conformity. I think in the moment we make it easy to achieve. I think the world will go more diverse. So I think then because if you go because right now temporarily, right there is the phenomenon of the Jenner family who all seem to have ended up with. The same face. There are certain convergences in looks that you get because it’s still. Yes, because it’s still hard to access, because it’s expensive, because their looks is not the dialogue is not therapeutic use of drugs. Their use is operational Yeah which is very expensive. But if that would be available to everybody, I don’t think we all want to look. There would be convergence. No, I’m thinking about that a lot because I just like I love history. And if you go into history, what always the beauty standard of each time, what was the hardest to get. A lot of the beauty standards are indirectly signaling that you have money because they are practically what you’re signaling. If I’m very trained, if I’m very if I’m thin, whatever, I have the time to do that. And so in the medieval ages, for example, the beauty standard was a very pale. Why Because the peasants had to work outside, so they were very tanned. So only the rich ladies could stay behind their castles and be very pale. So being pale was the unobtainable. And then being on the beach becomes the thing that rich people do and tanned. Exactly so. And the cool thing is still. But there’s still a standard. I mean, human beings are mimetic. It’s just hard for me. But what I’m saying is like, what happens if we making everything fairly easy. Is that not actually opening up the window because people are not seeing it as something unobtainable. So coming to women though, to your question first of all, sex, by the way, it’s very unfair. Men at least have Viagra Yeah, women have not really something. So many women I’m talking to are like, hey, I want to feel pleasure. And it’s always by the way, connected women’s health and well-being. And the number one thing they’re all citing is like, menopause sucks Yeah and we want also something for sexual pleasure, which we don’t have at the moment. Women don’t have and with menopause, does that include extending fertile years like I mean how both some want it again. So we have biotech company which is working on that Yeah but it can also be like, O.K, you’re not fertile anymore, but you don’t have all the downsides going through menopause. And how do you get to how do you get to mass access for this stuff. If it is it’s a marketplace and it’s done right. Bringing it to F.D.A. so that people don’t try sketchy [expletive] they’re ordering from China. And because they heard it from an influencer doing the very pro Chinese peptides, only All-American peptides. Yes because it’s also or European Union peptides. You need to know the science. And then obviously you need to know that what you ordered is what you want to have. And by the way, for the peptide markers, it’s a long story because again there I’m fairly conservative. I think we first of all, there are peptides which are already F.D.A. approved. I’m actually hoping they’re not going overboard because there is a lot of stuff on it, which I would call interesting. So I would like to learn more in terms of I would like to see more science, but I would not put it in my body Yeah and that’s where we as enhanced games at least or enhanced want to draw the line. And that’s what I want to message all the time. I want to give people the freedom because they deserve it. But freedom only makes sense if you have knowledge. Otherwise it’s idiocy. So what are you putting in your body. So the sentence before, but my whole message is it’s scientific and you have to do it with a doctor because what is right for me. Even if now I’m 48, even if a 48-year-old man is listening, saying, even for that person, meaning he can maybe take the closest comparison. Well, we’re going to imagine this. This is we’re watching television and this comes this conversation comes with immense bar at the bottom of the screen, the endless disclaimers. And you don’t have to tell me everything. Just give. Just give me a sense of your. I wouldn’t tell you. O.K, good. I’m very, open book. So testosterone is one thing. Since my seconds, I’m doing TRT, by the way. Very, very mild. What I’m doing is I know exactly where my testosterone level was at 30, and I’m keeping it there. And by the way, I don’t even think about it. But when I talk to friends who are going to the gym when they’re 48 and they’re training and they have sore muscles, whatever for days, I was like, I don’t have that. I’m really training exactly the same way and it feels the same way. So then I’m taking GLP 1 because I’m kind of stress eater like. And by the way, even if I have good stress, even have a fun day Yeah if I’m busy, I’m like, oh, here’s a cookie. There’s a cookie Yeah and then I gain weight Yeah and just happens to all of us. But GLP 1 switched it off. I haven’t eaten today because I was busy, but now I don’t because I just like. Do you find that they remove any non-food compulsions. Do you feel like they’ve changed your personality. It’s a good point. Not for me Yeah but again I come back. That’s why I say do it with a doctor. And what. Observe yourself like. And so there is this side effect people report, by the way. Sometimes it’s a happy side effect because they know people will say I’m no longer addicted to scrolling social media. Exactly but then to pick a hypothetical, unfortunately, it doesn’t do that for me. I am addicted to that. Like I’m trying my partner will. Yes, he is like it doesn’t work for him. It just for me, it does what it should do. It just reduces my craving or my stupid like, oh, I’m eating a cookie. So I have that. I’m taking DHEA, which is a hormone like substance. I taking pregnenolone I’m taking actually a lot of things for sleep. Because like also let me say sorry to jump in, but we people always want to know from me and this is exactly what we’re debating now is like what’s the medications we can take. It all just makes sense if you cover your basics. And the basics are five things in life for health and sleep is the number one. Get your sleep in order. Second is social relations. Super cheap and super hard at the same time. Have a great life. Enjoy it. Have friends. Have family. Third one is no drugs. You love now. But maybe. But coming from me. But like I hate drugs, by the way, the negative version of it Yeah and I think the number one drug, which should not be even allowed is alcohol. It destroys everything. Alcohol is scientifically the worst, and it’s spiritually a path to hell. That’s my view Yeah, I’ve never touched it, and I will never Yeah and by the way, marijuana. I have not touched it. I would not mix you dumb Yeah, there are medical use cases. But again, by the way, also. So everything is also always a trade off. If would have a medical use case with marijuana help, maybe I would do it. But I clearly see the side effects, which is especially when you’re younger, by the way it does. If you do it a lot, reduce a little bit your intellect for life. Why would I [expletive] do that? It’s like, yeah. So I have not tried any recreational drug except of coffee Yeah and psychedelics. But that’s another topic. We’ll get to that in a second. But everything else I think is bad. So don’t touch it. No alcohol, no cigarettes, no smoking. No so then go to the gym two or three times a week, do a little bit of cardio, do a little bit of weight training and then food intake, be mindful of that as well, because we like talking always about the risks of drug. And at the same time, people are like, sugar is super bad for you. Like, so have a Mediterranean diet. So these are the five basics. And I would say account for percent or 80 percent of your well-being aging whatever. And if you cover those basics then actually enhancements add on. That’s just like the concept like so I do a lot of supplements actually for sleep to improve that. I do one medical drug for sleep, which is called Q Vivek, that regulates the wake the wake sleep mechanism. So at the moment you have orexin drugs which promotes sleep like these. Zq Vivek. And the great thing is they give you more deep sleep. That’s what you really want. You need core, right. And interestingly, in older people it might actually reduce the risk for dementia and Alzheimer, which is always a theory I believed in is that older people unfortunately get less and less deep sleep in average. So it was always a hypothesis I was looking at is like, oh, if we give people more deep sleep, could that be prevented. And it seems to be. So I’m taking that. What did I forget. Well, just well, just take you mentioned Alzheimer’s then take me into the longevity debate and how you think about that. Because just as prior to Ozempic, I had the sense that lots of interventions made a difference on the margins. And then it was Ozempic comes along and seems to make a really big difference. My impression of all of the debates about longevity and anti-aging stuff at this moment is that people are doing, 17 different supplements and avoiding direct sunlight and so on. And in the end, maybe it’s going to add, 13 months to their average lifespan or something. Now, maybe that’s wrong, but that’s my impression. Do you have an expectation that you are doing or will be doing things that will actually add meaningfully to what your lifespan would be even if you were healthy. Yes O.K. So first of all, you’re right. At the moment there is nothing you can take so that in average, again, there could always be the outlier statistics. But there is nothing which would make people live 10 years longer Yeah. But it’s going to come. So at the moment I give you a different view like the two things a let’s start like already aging better having the same. So we need to dissect life expectancy. So how long do we live. And then quality of life. So we have already that’s what we just talked about. The quality of life I think can be easily already. Now for every person on the planet improved like 10 years plus. And then at the same time, I think now in the future in the next 10 years, we’re going to see breakthroughs also in life expectancy. So try to be alive. By the way, the number if you want if you want if you want if you want the extra right. And one thing maybe which is, again, just a practical thing because it’s not a medication. The number one thing at the moment is checkups. I’m doing a blood cancer screening that you get your blood drawn and yeah, I’m doing every three months and maybe a little bit obsessive. That’s a little bit. I mean, I did just get a colonoscopy. So I’m doing it every two virtuous. I feel virtuous for that. But yeah, I’m not good at keeping up with checkups for reasons that I want to get into at the end. But now I want to ask about psychedelics. Where does the mind and consciousness alteration fit into this. In so many ways the first of all, first of all, I hopefully I get it across that I really think this was the beginning of our debate. I think life is awesome Yeah it’s exciting. We’re not having a debate. No, exactly. But I just want to say and that’s where my point comes. But I realized someone I had this luck literally, since I’m alive and I really, really credit my parents. I’m coming from these very small farm village. Like, I’m always fairly happy. It doesn’t mean that I have bad days, but my baseline is happy. And so when I realized that is not normal and I think it’s very sad. Life is awesome. But obviously need to be happy to enjoy it and healthy. But like we covered the health part, but life without happiness is not good. So that’s why the baseline of psychedelics is like they have the potential to really massively, massively improve the mental health of people who have a medical issue, which is a lot. Meaning depression, depression, and PTSD addiction. But in this terrain, just to be clear, we’re not in the realm of things that are all F.D.A. approved. This is yes and no. Because the amazing thing is like so I’m saying that since 10 years, but I always had to add we’re going to prove that out. So I started two companies, atai and compass. Both are listed. Both companies together raised more than $1.5 billion. I put in 100 million of my own capital more than. And now we’re there. So compass has released phase III data, which is the last final stage for which for treatment resistant depression. But then they have with which psychedelic sorry compass is psilocybin O.K. Which is the active ingredient in magic mushrooms. And then a tie is doing all the other psychedelics. We just had phase I data for 5-MeO-DMT which was maybe the best data set in neuroscience since like 30 years. It’s amazing for which sorry, 5-MeO-DMT, which is another psychedelic. So they have several psychedelics. Is that equivalent to the DMT that is in ayahuasca. What’s the connection. So it’s a very colloquially said it’s a stronger version. It’s a different molecule. It’s in the same family. It’s in the same family. We also do DMT. So our tie is doing 5-MeO-DMT which is actually what people call colloquially the Toad thing. Like if you have heard it. Yes yeah. Then you we do as a tie. We do DMT, which is colloquially what you take when you do ayahuasca. Ayahuasca, but you can do DMT without doing. Exactly and actually we do it buccal, which is then a much shorter trip because I think if you do it medically in the medical system, the shorter the better. Because I have to add for psychedelics is I believe psychedelics should be not only medically approved, but they only should be taken with a clinician together. So it’s a narrower approval. Like for example, what we discussed so far are prescription drugs. You have to go to a doctor consult. But then testosterone you can take home or get an injection or whatever. But psychedelics my vision and also where we agree because the F.D.A. has the same vision, is they should be used only with a clinician together because the session can be very intense Yeah, I’ve heard that. And you should do it with somebody who’s educated. And that’s how it unfolds. The therapy effect. But long story short psychedelics are about to be approved. You’re going to see psilocybin, the active ingredient, magic mushrooms. You can take it with your doctor next year. It’s going to happen now. There was just a presidential order, which kind of just said, stated the obvious because it was needed actually a different topic. And all the other psychedelics we’re developing — DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, ibogaine, a new version of MDMA — are going to come, I would say, over the next three to five years to market. And which are the ones that you have taken yourself or that you take now. So I do regularly. Psilocybin, which is the active ingredient in magic mushrooms, regularly means I do it once, maximum twice a year with a therapist together in a country where it’s already legal. So I do it the proper way how it will be in the United States, hopefully next year, end of this year, next year. So I have done 5-MeO-DMT, I’ve done DMT, I’ve actually done our entire pipeline. Except of ibogaine. All right. So what. What happens to when you do psilocybin. Wow that’s. That’s always the most complicated question. Yes Well, I’m going to ask about DMT too, but I want to ask about both. As someone who has never taken either and finds the literature on them very interesting. Can I give you two answers. I give you the personal one second, I give you the medical one, and I try to make it simplified. Medical one. All the psychedelics. One of the big effects is we have a part of our brain, where our consciousness seems to be created. At least our sense of ego. Consciousness is a tricky term because that’s now what I’m doing. Like I’m going through a minefield of tricky terms. Sense of the boundaries. Sense of self Yeah and ego Yeah ego not an OH, somebody has a big ego but ego in your sense of self. And that default mode network is reduced to really shut down. And the initial reaction of people is, oh, who am when my ego is gone. And then the interesting answer is, and I can try to make it very neutral. And I can give you my Christian answer because I’m personally very spiritual, religious, which is I want to make a clear divide I can give you. And that’s the great thing with psychedelics, we can go through FTA and don’t need to use the word God and soul and all of that because we know this is a safe space for using that word. And I like it. I’m just always make it clear what I. There are certain things we know about psychedelics, and the great thing is we know that much that it’s so easily going to be F.D.A. approved. Because by the way, side note also the side effect profile is super benign Yeah, people have a headache vomiting there. There are some people have a higher heart rate. But it’s all I would say again, I don’t want to be too easygoing because everything has side effects and everything is a trade off. If you drink coffee, your body will display some side effects. You just know them. But I would say, what we’ve shown is like they have mild side effects. But back to the feeling itself. So you have a sense your sense of ego and self weakens and then something else is there Yeah and you can call it your subconsciousness. You can call it your soul, your inner voice, whatever. So your brain or your head is not empty, so to say. And that is the moment which allows you to work through whatever the reason for your mental health issue is. For me, again, it’s more my personal opinion. I want to because I’m chairman also of a biotech company publicly. But my personal opinion is like there are certain root causes is my belief for psychedelics, for sorry, for mental health issues like trauma is a very widely talked about. But there’s also others like loss of connections, grieving Yeah just like getting obsessed with negativity in your life. And depending what the root cause is, my subjective answer is the beauty of all psychedelics is they show you the right answer or the right antidote to whatever your root cause is. I give you two examples like if people are and there are so many, by the way, their root cause is the simplest one and the most common one is they don’t even know what makes them happy, because we’re living in a world where we don’t embrace that. We don’t allow people to explore and communicate and express, and that is one of the biggest group of patients I see throughout all psychedelics. They go in a psychedelic trip and they come out and they’re like, I know now what I want and that I deserve it and I should do it. But you’re doing this not all the time, but frequently. So are you once or twice a year, are you resetting and figuring out how your true self is changing. Like what is the maintenance effect, so the maintenance is better. Let’s start with my first trip. So the great thing with me that’s why for me, it was very confirmatory. So I went into that and I came out of it was like O.K, the first, the only two things why I did this whole thing, because it sounds so banal everything I’m telling people about how psychedelics work and what psychedelics teach you. You can read a Deepak Chopra book, by the way. You can talk to your parents. You can also read the Bible like we have all these things out there which show us how to lead a good, happy life in Germany. It just say it goes in the right ear and goes out the left, meaning you don’t listen to it truly. And on psychedelics is because your ego is reduced. It’s like you experiences experience these kind of truths at a very, very deep, absolute level. And you come out of it and you have the courage to live according to it. So in my case, though, it was very confirmatory. What was the revelation of your first trip. Very simple. I’m doing exactly what I love. I’m blessed. I structure, by the way. And why. Because I always structured my life. Why would I do anything different. I don’t even understand it. How people can do things they don’t love because then don’t do it Yeah And now people say Christian is very fortunate because he’s very successful. No, I decided that very early and then I became successful because I’m very sure about that. And the second was, though, and it’s so cheesy. It’s all about love. It’s like, yeah, you can have a lot of money. It’s in my case, it’s like, I like to build companies. So the message was do that. But make sure that you have enough time for your parents, because if life goes as normal, they’re going to be gone before me and have a great relationship to that. And I’m so grateful. So I spend more time since then with my parents, make enough time, it’s so simple. So people might say, O.K, I could have told you that without a psychedelic trip, but I want to really get across your experiences on that deep level that you’re like, wow, that’s it. So with DMT. Which is associated with ayahuasca, which is a drug that has a whole shamanic culture that’s grown up around it. My understanding, and this is, I’m sure, a crude generalization, is that magic mushrooms, things like them, induce some version of this sense of dissolution of self, oneness with the universe, self-knowledge, and so on. DMT, ayahuasca gives you a more extreme experience where it feels like you are entering different levels of reality, encountering other entities, beings. People talk about angels, people talk about the machine elves, which people listening can Google if they’re interested in. And yeah, just have just have a sense that’s more like they are leaving this plane and entering another plane. I’m curious first, is that your experience. And second, there’s a lot of people who have what you might call kind of hellish experiences. And in especially in that, they’re plunged into of purgatorial landscape where they feel like they’re cut off from God and reality and so on. What is that. Is my reading accurate. Basically, yes and no, because there’s many points in it, which all we need to dissect because it’s many things. So first of all, let’s stay with DMT. So when people drink DMT. And that’s what it’s called ayahuasca. It’s a very, very different experience. It’s up to eight hours whatever. When I say we do DMT we do it buckle. So it’s in your cheek. In your cheek Yeah it could be also intranasal is anything transmucosal. Then it’s a much faster experience. It’s from clinical start to end round about two hours. And it’s very different from ayahuasca. So while it’s the same ingredient, you’re saying like ayahuasca is very different. What is that experience. How is that experience different from Magic mushrooms. So that’s the second answer is, by the way, a lot of people who make the differentiation you just made and say, oh under DMT, ayahuasca or so drinking version or transmucosal version or five GMT, you see entities you go through literally another plane of existence if you want to say it like that or perceived. And mushrooms is more gentle. Most of them have done mushrooms recreationally, so they take fairly little. So I always ask people, when you had this experience, were you able to walk and speak properly. Most people say, yeah, kind of. I was on a beach. I was like, O.K, it was a great, by the way, great you. I did it on a beach, in a country where it’s legal, but it’s a mild dose. So the therapy dose is actually much closer together. So in the therapeutic dose of psilocybin, people also have a very spiritual experience. So they nuance is different. But they again they’re much closer together when what you compared now a very strong DMT dose to a very recreational psilocybin dose. But tell me, tell me what. Just tell me what happens. What does it. So if you take the therapeutic dose of magic mushrooms or you’re taking this more condensed dose of DMT, do you feel like you’re on another plane of existence. So let’s just for the sake of compliance, let’s say we’re leaving science now because science is like, yeah. So we’re coming now to my personal opinion Yeah. So I do believe that psychedelics are opening up the opening up our again, I’m only struggling because I know when I use religious terms, then maybe religion is the one thing. We don’t think a lot about it, but it’s very loaded if I use the word God or soul. Everybody has a few, and it’s not necessarily what I want to say with it. I’m just giving that as a disclaimer. But I do think psychedelics. But it’s not what I want to hear about Yeah no, no. And I’m happy to hear I just trying to make it most accurate and not repel people. Well and you just the disclaimer would be you think people will have experiences and get these results, even if they think and are sure that it’s all happening just inside their heads. Yes, that’s what we’ve proven. But when I read what. We also ask the personal questionnaires or whatever of the patients, this is all a very spiritual experience. Some people, by the way, might not call it like that. I have a friend who’s actually a big shout out because he was my first shaman, in my very first trip. He’s very, very he would call himself, although he does psychedelics, really an atheist. But when I talk to him, you’re not an atheist. Just don’t like the word. You like religious you believe in something bigger. I think there is no relative, by the way, or very, very little. And I almost would claim like cannot be a real atheist after you took psychedelics because everybody comes out and has these. It’s called spiritual for now, religious, very deep experience that there is more and there’s no I mean, there’s data on this, as I understand it, that at least with what I’ve read about DMT, it is similar to the data on near-death experiences, where you have a substantial number of people where they do a study and they say they go in. Are you an atheist or materialist. And they say, yes, going in and there is not. Not with everyone. Maybe not with your friend. But there is often this change of metaphysical perspective. He also he also has this is what he says. I want to it Yeah but that is what people have. Like they have a very deep spiritual experience some people meet entities. Do I personally believe. Yes yeah. Because I’m spiritual religious like I believe. Have you met entities Yes Tell me, tell me. I especially make God like every single time. So tell me what that was like. It’s undescribable because that is the no, by the way. Suddenly, if you. I’m sure this is a podcast, everything is describable. Yes I’m trying. I’ll just give you the word that it is undescribable because that is the nature of God. Like what so suddenly apophatic theology, which is where the term for when human concepts fail and percent like you go what the thing is like. So my guess by the way, obviously we have to bring it across in a podcast and you can say you don’t want to answer, have you done it. No so no. And I’ll tell you why in a second. So why I’m asking is like, so you’re actually a good counterpart because I’m trying to explain it to somebody because otherwise people immediately know what you mean. Because everybody has the same experience, but it’s practically like you read in the Bible where it’s like can’t make a picture of God. You can’t. It is like that. God is so much bigger Yeah, and so much out of our comprehension we have in this incarnation. I also believe we have an eternal soul. I believe we’re going to go forever and it’s just so far out of our comprehension. But on psychedelics, you’re going on a state of consciousness, which allows you I would say to comprehend the nature and let’s maybe use the divine and to communicate with it. And it was the most loving, best experience I ever had, by the way. Not always fun, I can tell you the hardest. Because people I work with. Bad trip Yeah what you said the hellish ones Yeah, right. And people report entities that are darker. So I think “I think a majority of what people would call, let’s use the word bad trip is because they’re not prepared for it. So I can give you very where I witnessed very hard story, but with a very positive ending. And they were good because somebody was sitting next to them and guiding them. If that happens to you at a festival, you might find it was the worst experience you ever had because you’re like, and it sounds so simple, but I tell you, it’s psychedelics with set and setting the way a how that you’re safe and you’re expecting it to a certain degree and that you have somebody next to you. So that is but you don’t. But then you don’t really think, though, that to the extent that you actually believe that this opens doors, you’re not just locked into your head having this experience, you’re opening a door to the infinite. You don’t think that it’s possible to open that door and have something dangerous waiting on the other side. That is one of the best questions because I never had it in a podcast. So well, this is the special thing about interesting times. So I’m actually I believe and it’s by the way, maybe the one question I ask every religious leader I’m meeting eating. It’s How do you make sure if you’re on the religious side of it. Again, this is not science. This is not a tie. It’s like, how do you make sure that you’re meeting God and not a misleading entity. Yes yeah. If you want a very simplified I have some concerns about the misleading entities. So yes, I’m thinking about that, by the way, an incredible amount because I’m again that’s. But you don’t think just to be you don’t feel like you’ve met a misleading entity. And the reason is I think how do I phrase it. Again, this all sounds cheesy for the ones who want to make fun of it. But like I do believe that ultimately not just life is good, but God is good. And if you go and have a sincere problem which you’re bringing towards God, then she it will always answer. That is my deep religious belief that these psychedelics are meant to open up that. So God gave it to us for a reason. And because God again, personal belief, because God gave it to us psychedelics, he wants us to discover him in that way, if you’re ready for it. That is my spiritual answer. But this is why it’s so important to go into it with exactly that intention. This is why if I go back and maybe not, maybe if the right answer to your question is also to look, how have others done it. All religions. Christianity, who used a lot of psychedelics Yeah, that’s a separate podcast conversation. But we’ll let that we’ll let the claim pagan religions like whatever all the ones who are still out now like the nature religions and the Amazon, whatever, they all make sure that you go into it with that intention and preparation. And then I think the answer is like, if you I think, what’s the quote in the Bible. Like if you ask God for something, he will always answer. But if you do it in if you ignore the power of these substances, and if you do it in a non-intentional setting, I think you can accidentally meet other entities. But like, I cannot go with that argument to the F.D.A. and say they won’t. They won’t listen to this podcast, but don’t worry. No they do. But the good thing is they can come to the same conclusion with science. And a lot of people say I’m a hypocrite because again, because I’m trying to stay in the middle lane Yeah I deeply believe these very powerful substances should be available, but I don’t believe at all, and especially for psychedelics, that they should be sold in a marijuana shop because it can go terribly wrong. And it can give you the scientific answer why it can go wrong. Because if you uncover a trauma in your whatever, then it can make it worse. And it can give you the religious answer that if you go into it without the preparation, the preparation. But if you go into it and you are going it with a pure heart what I mean. Like, I’m struggling and I’m not trying to speak about if you’re going in it like with a good intention and if the intention is to solve your problem, I think God will be there because he gave us these substances. That is my personal religious belief. O.K I really appreciate you answering me directly. And I want to just to bring us to the end. I guess, offer my own Christian reasons for skepticism about these substances that I think connect to some reasons for skepticism about of the quest for greater human potential overall. You mentioned earlier you said something like the message that God is love. It’s there in the Bible and it’s there in Deepak Chopra. And it’s there in Oprah Winfrey and so on. I agree with that. But I think that there I think that there’s a lot of spiritual thought and practice nowadays that starts with the assumption that if you find it in the depths of your soul, it’s probably basically good. And I feel like Christianity starts from a somewhat different perspective and says, the depths of your soul is also divided. Human beings are divided. We have an angelic side, and we have a exactly a fallen right. We have a fallen side. But then what does this mean. For in his encyclical that I started with and I know you have it, read it. You don’t have to read. You don’t have to have read it to respond to this. But the Pope says something basically, there are certain kinds of suffering, certain kinds of experiences, embodied experiences, experiences of difficulty, heartbreak, sorrow, disease, death itself, that human beings are supposed to go through. And again, I should say, I’ve had Christian friends who have had conversion experiences based on psychedelics. So I’m not denying that they can have positive effects. But as a consistent practice of a culture, you’re stepping outside. You’re leaving the trials of the flesh behind. And then in the same way, everything else that you have talked so eloquently about is it’s like are escaping it. The suffering, the things we’re supposed to go through. We’re maxing out. And I just worry about human vanity. Isn’t vanity a problem here. Isn’t ego a problem here that you don’t necessarily escape just by getting to the depths of yourself anyway. That’s a ramble. Just tell me, tell give me a response first. And I always wanted to talk about it because there’s two answers like that. On that, let’s come to psychedelic and say on the enhancement side, on the physical, on the physical side. Actually, I thought about it because by the way, I’m deeply religious or spiritually, and I only say spiritual because I’m Christian. But like, I kind think you have some heterodox ideas and I’m coming, I’m coming to the Catholic Church in a second, and especially not to this encyclical, but I haven’t read it but to the idea what’s missing because I think what all religions did, by the way, that would be a separate podcast. One sentence like, and I doing a lot of research there and financing a lot of research. Most religions are built on psychedelics and what psychedelics tell you. And I can see it, by the way, once you have a psychedelic experience, I read the entire Bible. I read Quran like because I’m interested in it. And once you read it with the eye of having done psychedelics, you clearly see where the psychedelic influence is. No, but wait, but I want to tell you, wait a second. No, no, I can’t let that go. Wait but couldn’t that just be that psychedelics give you through a drug, a spiritual experience that people in the Bible or the Quran or wherever else are getting direct from God. Why does it have to be that They’re like, I agree, they’re great. Hopefully we have a little bit more time because I love this debate or a discussion because for example, I financed a very important, I think, very good study, completely different thing because I believe someone we’re going to use psychedelics for peace negotiations. Totally because I think one sentence, because it’s such an important topic is one of things and we showed it is like in all these conflicts in Israel and Palestine and Rwanda, whatever it is, they dehumanizing the other side. So when I talk to politicians at the moment, most of them are like they manipulate me. So what we’ve shown with what we did, we had a group of Palestinians and a group of Jews trip together, and they all went in and were like, oh, do I come out and going to give the land away. That was the manipulative worry they had what actually happened, which is much more beautiful. I think they came out and said, it’s such a complicated debate. I want to live here. But I for the first time see that the other person is a human with a family with very basic he’s like me, and they just want to live and make a good life for their family, and I want to find a solution. They didn’t find the solution, but I think it was a great answer because it was not compelling them both sides to leave the land, but it gave them the understanding that there is a human on the other side, which if you read it, you’re like, what did they think before. All right. But let’s stay. This is good, though. This will sharpen my question in the New Testament. Jesus does want people to have a direct relationship to God, to pray, to call God father right to. There’s clearly a strong thread of mystical experience. Running through the whole New Testament. But how shall I put this. Jesus is not humanmaxxing. Jesus is incredibly focused on — Everything Jesus is talking about is giving up your body for other people. This is something I fail at, by the way. I’m not like holding myself up as a paragon of this, but you’re giving your possessions away, but you’re also giving of your physical form. And I think the worry, whether it’s the Pope or me sitting here talking to you now is that there’s a combination of maxxing of the body and spiritual escape that risks getting away from that fundamental obligation. That’s my question. Don’t we risk getting away from fundamental obligations like just in your examples. I’ve got a lot of kids. I don’t have time to do certain maxxing things or even to think about certain maxxing things, and I’m not sure that’s a bad thing. So first of all, there is two different answers, by the way, for psychedelics, let’s call it mind mixing, if you want to call it that. And for the so giving you the answers. Psychedelics by the way to finish that I think by the way, I also want to say everything I just said. Come back to your question. Like everything I just said, you can actually achieve without psychedelics. And by the way, I’m not the one who says, hey, this is the only way. Religions have all developed various techniques meditation, prayer, whatever. My critique is, and that is, for example, my biggest critique, I would say as a Catholic, is like they traded away the mystical experience and the direct relationship to God and also helping people to achieve that even without psychedelics Yeah, I want people to have that because I think that is the core of having a relationship with God. And they traded that away for power and organization Yeah and they made themselves very hollow. And I think that is so yes, it’s important that the Pope says something about A.I., but I don’t think we need the Pope for that. I want the Pope to give much deeper answers, much more spiritual answers on the condition of being human. And I think they lost it. And it’s sad because I think people deeply, deeply need that and long for it, especially in a world which is changing. Again, coming back to that, we need religion. I deeply believe so. OK. So that’s the mindmaxxing side. Now talk about the bodymaxxing and whether am I doing something wrong. I maybe by letting myself get a little bit fat and ignoring my lost hair in the butt in the service of trying to be a good journalist and a good husband and father and not have that, be in my mind all the time. O.K, I’m giving you a personal answer. You ask in terms of you, I want a personal answer. Yes so you have children. How many I have five children. So you have five children. How old? They are anywhere from 15 to 2. So you want to be there as long as you can. So you’re a tiny bit overweight Yeah is putting a toll on you. No, it’s storing inflammation. It’s increasing your risk for a cardiovascular disease. And you have a responsibility, I believe, for the kids you put in this world to be there in a healthy state for them. Because I believe in family. So it’s kind of people want to talk, but maybe not the hair. I can leave the hair alone. But if it makes you a happier dad, the question is that why I said before. Like, it’s not that I’m saying we all should do that, but I think there are people who want. If they do X, it makes them happier. And I want them to be happy because only if you are happy, you can make other people happy. If you’re miserable, you’re going to make other people miserable. So be happy Yeah have a connection with God and be healthy because that is the basis. And then you can be the good force in life to whoever you want to be, that to your children, to your wife, to your readers, whatever. So it’s not a conflict. People always want to talk up that conflict and make it like, egocentric. Whatever not at all. It’s like that, but it is you. So you would admit it’s a conflict for some people. It’s why I struggle with it myself that there is a balance between healing and seeking health, which I think Christians, people who believe in God, are absolutely required to do. But then there’s also the perils of vanity, narcissism and egocentrism that I think, whatever psychedelics may or may not do are carried in the train of personal improvement. It’s like, I hear you again. And I think if some people become narcissistic or very vain, then it is a treatable issue itself. And then I would say go to psychedelics. But I don’t think that people who just want to be the best version of themselves, that they should be called that. I give you two. So if you’re because I never had a podcast where the other side was also Christian like believer like. So I guess child of God is an accurate one. Are we God’s children. So in. Yes, with some theological debate behind it. But yes. But I think sometimes, by the way, that the theological intellectual debate is the wrong one, but I think maybe it’s the real one. Like maybe you should take things more literally. So I deeply believe, because I was thinking, why do I like biotech so much and why not even me. Like, forget about me. Why are we humans so curious. Why do we want to invent. There is this drive. Like we literally Zoom out. Like we are a very curious, adventurous, innovating species. We have this drive to do that. I actually my personal answer is because that is the divine in US, that the part of God, if God is a very creating, has a very creative nature, which we definitely as Christians would say he does because he created the universe and us. Whatever isn’t it that we have that spark in US and we want to create on a much smaller level, but it’s like my. It’s like children imitating you Yeah, yeah. And I think trying to optimize things. But by the way, trying to do any science, whatever is actually is the divine spark in US. And that’s why I think it’s good. It’s inherently good if we’re trying to as I said, become the best version of ourselves. And I don’t think there is anything bad in science helping us do that. I’m very hopeful that this has been the best version, the best possible version of this podcast. So, Christian Angermayer, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. It was amazing.
